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 Post subject: Miniature Options
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:43 pm 
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Obviously, the #1 option would be to have dedicated, "official" units to represent exactly what the forces of the 10 Worlds field, but this obviously is a bit into the future, so the option of placeholders comes up.

But first, a few notes pulled from discussions on the older message board:

1) I advocate the creation of TO&Es (or KstNs for your Olympians) that make logical sense for their deployment and equipment, even if this might conflict with what's commercially available. As well, there should be at least some kind of guidelines for over and underequipped units. Naturally, in sustained combat depleted armor platoons will be deployed as is, but it is likley that they would at least be temporarily re-organized given a respite.

2) Initially at least, some placeholders will not quite look right for the units, whereas others will be just wrong. This will not be quite right, but under the circumstances, as best as it can be.

Now, as for scales, I seriously advocate the use of either a 1:285 or 1:300 scale, for two primary reasons: Ease of already commercially availabe scenery, and accepability of the general scale (including commercially available placeholders).

Even a cursory glance at available materials shows that one can get a considerable selection of buildings going all the way from basic huts to hardened military ground-to-orbit comm centers. As well, there are several product lines that market both modern and several forms of science fiction ground and air units that have a variety of designs, suggesting logically that somewhere there should be at least basic models that can be modded to be similar to units currently in use by the armed forces of the 10 Worlds.

(I've got a bit of a plot on my back burner to try and get some NR units done up to match their Desant brigade.. GHQ manufactures a BMD, which is remotely simliar to the BMD-3 as used by the Desant brigade)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:25 am 
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In defining XC's Forces, both CNMC and XCDF, I've kept current vehicles as baselines. The AVT space armor that protects them will allow _some_ shift in shape, but not all that much. The constraints discussion on the Philosophy List, which I will edit and summarize sooner or later, pretty much made clear that the real advances that would impact on TW ground combat were Zone Defence vs artillery, improved armour protection, and the expansion in detection ranges tied to new and improved sensors. Weaponry and vehicles themselves would not change much, thanks to the Wall. The tactics will, evolve _a_lot_, however. Logistics will have a major impact on gameplay, and missing a combat bulldozer of throwable bridge at a crucial moment will lose the whole campaign. the lack of Gee-Whiz tech is an advantage, IMHO. The articles on the CNMC in Nexus are an XC-specific summary of the constraints discussion.

Another factor that was little mentioned in the discussion but will have a major impact on the game was the use of UAVs as opposed to manned aviation. Olympia and Medina kept theirs, while XC did away with it in favour of near-exclusive use of UAVs in off-world ops.

As to mixing and matching units, XC forces are designed to do just that. The Drop Brigade trains to fight as soon as it lands, which means forming at hoc units with whatever survives the target world's orbital defences. This is a major part of training scenarios on XC. The XCDF (and CNMC) also deploy company-sized task forces versus XC's native wildlife, but in emergencies XCDF reservists can be called up on an ad hoc basis to reinforce an outlying settlement by air. This would lead to airlifting any trained trooper that can be mustered, and forming ad hoc units in situ.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:04 am 
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Does this imply the possibility of solitaire XCDF scenarios ala SFB 'monsters'?

I must say that I've always had a vague idea of getting my megafauna models (okay dinosaurs) and seeing what it could actually do to a modern 'National Guard' force.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:42 am 
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I'm still working on the Caterpillars, but XC now sports a variety of rabidly hostile man-eating species, thanks to Luke Bennet's work. Some of these species are perfect for solitaire scenarios, à la "Starship Troopers - The Movie". Caterpillars themselves will require a player to use effectively, given their adaptative tactics.

The rule of thumb is that within XC's enclaves, a small RPG gaming party with light arms (semi-auto rifles, XC has _very_ bad gun control) should be able to take on any opposition, as this is heavily thinned out by the CNMC but most of all regular patrols by the XCDF's own UAVs and the HLRF. In the Outback (outside the enclaves), you're safest within a combined arms armored company battlegroup.

Interested?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:55 am 
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Assuming that Ad Astra is intending to make minitaures, or is intending that the game not be played with miniatures, then I quite agree with Sylvester's comments.

If, on the other hand, Ad Astra is not intending to make their own minis, but still wants to make the game a minis game, then my suggestion (from the old boards) was to officially adopt some extant line, and make the effort to make the TO&Es workable with that line, as well as consistent with the background.

The precondition of that suggestion got lost in the noise somewhere, I think, on the old boards.

Though from the sounds of things, Ken is (at this very early stage in planing) thinking of a non-minis game anyway.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:15 am 
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Staying with existing miniatures, indeed accomodating an existing range, seems like a good idea, but do remember that what must be avoided at all costs is the "Army with ten shoulder patches" syndrome. In short, we need ten different armies, not ten carbon copies. Not wedding ourselves to a miniature range may be the better option, if only to preserve variety. Trust me, this is hard enough once you take in both IRL and TW constraints.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Quote:
"Army with ten shoulder patches" syndrome. In short, we need ten different armies, not ten carbon copies.


Agreed, Claudio. The problem, as you said, is also to avoid marrying ourselves to one particular miniature line and yet preserving variety.

Which brings us to a few catches

1) There aren't that many companies that actually make microarmor-scale units. I know of three, with another odd possibility. The biggest of which is GHQ [mainly ww2 and modern armor], then there is CinC [similar to GHQ, but with smaller overall selection, but actually little overlap], and then there is Ground Zero Games [which has a particlularily large selection, as they own the CMD molds, but the majority of it is fairly high sci-fi, so they might not be able to provide what is required]. The odd possibility is the Warhammer 40k Epic line, believe it or not. While most of their units are obviously unsuitable (don't stare directly at the ork) a few of the imperial guard units may be useful, namely their fixed-wing aircraft and perhaps an apc or two, as they have relatively normal looking designs. The Tau may also serve in this regard, but their hardware may be too futuristic.

2) Since 10:W units are obviously based off existing formations and doctrines, then it stands to reason that in some arms, equipment and so on are similar to what is currently in service (Several advocates have stated as such, which is one of the reasons I know about the BMD for Novaya Rossiya).

This leads us to point three, extrapolated:

3) Traditionally more rigid, hierarchical governments (or at least decened from them IE the NR, XC) may have more recognisable equipment when compared to modern-day hardware, and thusly more easily proxied. Forrces traditionally tied to more flexible, market-driven governments may have more radical, less-recognisable designs (Olympia comes to mind, most other 10W states should fall into this) will still rely on more tested hardware, but might have more different or radical weapon systems (Assuming any FN forces are still around as national units in Olympian service, they might have a few bits of functional high-earth-tech).

So now we're looking at where to go for miniatures. We have a particularily wide selection of ranges all about in the same scale, so we might be able to kludge something together for the various forces, and more to the point, without a set TO&E and an idea as to what miniatures to use, the discussion cannot really go much farther. My only proviso would be to state that Ad Astra should state (whenever this mess gets off the back burner) that there are certian miniatures in production that look verymuch like what is actually on the TO&E, and their use is suggested, but not activly endorsed.

In this entire mess, I think the adoption of units from several lines, depending on design and deployment, is more likley than the adoption of a singular line.

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 Post subject: 1/285, 1/300, 6mm SF miniatures
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:09 pm 
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Scotia Models (modern and SF)
Brigade Models
Irregular Miniatures
Steve Jackson Games (Ogre)
WizKids Games (Mechwarrior: many figures cheap and adaptable)
Days of Empire has some suitable models in their line

See: The 6mm Science Fiction Wargames Yahoogroup

Reaper makes 10mm stuff for CAV that's kinda-sorta usable in 6mm. Some of the tanks have very much the right feel.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:46 am 
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I don't see much problam finding minis to use with the eventual 10W system. There aren't really all that many armored vehicles in the setting, and a given scale infantryman or hardsuit trooper looks pretty similar to any other scale infantryman or hardsuit trooper. Seems like it would be easy enough to say 'the ones with this big made-up weapon are the supprt weapon gunners, the ones with this launcher-looking thing are the anti-vehicle weapon guys, and everybody elase is a rifleman' or something of that sort.

-Kle.


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 Post subject: Maksim: A few other 6mm resources:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:46 am 
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Hi Guys,

Ethan already mentioned the 6mm sci-fi web site I help run, but here are a few others of great use to someone interested in 6mm (AKA 1/300 AKA 1/285) minis:

6mm_miniatures E-group:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm_Miniatures/

And my new E-group for my experimental game in playtest "Planetfall - The Generic Universal Science Fiction Miniatures Wargame Engine":

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Planetfall-TGUSFMWE/

I'd encourage anyone interested in the topics of those E-groups to join them. I've always thought the more the merrier...

In the case of my "Planetfall - The Generic Universal Science Fiction Miniatures Wargame Engine" gaem, this is a rare chance to get in on the ground floor of a game and be part of seeing it developed into something you would want.

I wish everyone the best.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Welcome aboard, Max
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:39 am 
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Max and I have been talking off list about evaluating Planetfall (I'm hoping to help him find a better title...) for Ten Worlds ground combat.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Klebert L. Hall wrote:
I don't see much problam finding minis to use with the eventual 10W system. There aren't really all that many armored vehicles in the setting, and a given scale infantryman or hardsuit trooper looks pretty similar to any other scale infantryman or hardsuit trooper. Seems like it would be easy enough to say 'the ones with this big made-up weapon are the supprt weapon gunners, the ones with this launcher-looking thing are the anti-vehicle weapon guys, and everybody elase is a rifleman' or something of that sort.

-Kle.


the big issue i'd expect is wether you choose to use "real" or "scifi" 6mm scales. for example, GHQ (and it's imitators) produces 'real' 6mm scale vehicles and figures. (and darn good ones too). these tend to be about an inch long for an MBT like the M-1. not a bad scale.

on the other hand, there are scifi games in the 6mm scale (like for example, battletech, using IronWindMetals figures), that produce good looking 'scifi' vehicles (like hovercraft and such)..but due to stylistic differances, tend to inflate the size of the vehicles over real world comparisons. for example, the IWM mini for the Oro Tank in battletech, which is 60 tons (10 tons lighter than an M-1), is about 1.5 inches long, 1.4 wide, and almost half an inch tall. making it about 3x bigger than the GHQ M-1. IWM tanks of similar size to the GHQ ones tend to be the light tanks of 20 to 40 tons...

just something to consider.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Mark Temple wrote:
the big issue i'd expect is wether you choose to use "real" or "scifi" 6mm scales. for example, GHQ (and it's imitators) produces 'real' 6mm scale vehicles and figures. (and darn good ones too). these tend to be about an inch long for an MBT like the M-1. not a bad scale.

on the other hand, there are scifi games in the 6mm scale (like for example, battletech, using IronWindMetals figures), that produce good looking 'scifi' vehicles (like hovercraft and such)..but due to stylistic differances, tend to inflate the size of the vehicles over real world comparisons. for example, the IWM mini for the Oro Tank in battletech, which is 60 tons (10 tons lighter than an M-1), is about 1.5 inches long, 1.4 wide, and almost half an inch tall. making it about 3x bigger than the GHQ M-1. IWM tanks of similar size to the GHQ ones tend to be the light tanks of 20 to 40 tons...

just something to consider.


Personally, I think that the vehicles done my IWM (IronWindMetals) are more akin to an 8-10mm or perhaps even a bit larger for actual scale. They use a somewhat logarithmic scale for their units as opposed to Ad Astra's absolute scale. The same can also been seen in their aerotech warships, where a McKenna Battleship is only perhaps twice as long as a Vincent Corvette, even though they're almost at either end of the size spectrum in any measurement.

In fairness, GHQ is not perfectly 6mm either. Their infantry is more in the 7mm or perhaps 8mm scale (the US WW2 Paratroopers are a much-complained abberation, perhaps in the 10mm scale). But at that size not many people mind the infantry being 7mm as opposed to 6mm, and you can with very little difficulty tell the difference between a Russian or a German or an American infantryman even at arms length. And that's when you just have them basecoated an even grey.

The reasons I advocate for that scale are stated at the beginning, but I want to spam them a bit more, and add another as well :D There's a wide variety of scenery available that pretty much covers everything that one can want. It's well established already. It also allows one to run a battle without succumbing to "tank parking lot syndrome" where the tanks have to be parked tread to tread to actually fit in on the board. Lastly, the price points can be low enough to interest even casual collectors who look at a force they are interested in and can actually afford to get a full unit or collection of units without having to mortgage their children's internal organs :P

(incidentally, if you think the Oro's bad. Look at the Ares. The sculpt is Massive. The Karnov is actually smaller... and I can think of assault mechs that are smaller than it as well..)

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 Post subject: Re: Miniature Options
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:52 pm 
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The two scales we're toying with are 6mm and 15mm.

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