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 Post subject: AV:T/SOTS Question
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:17 am 
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With the problems you had building battleship+ warships in SOTS using the current rules, will there be a revision of the AV:T ruleset, especially when the Ten Worlds get up to Leviathan hulls (i.e. will there be a AV:T 1.75)?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:34 am 
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Perhaps, but I don't think the AV:T economy can sustain building a battleship right now, nevermind a Leviathan (that's if EVERYONE decided to fund a battleship >.> )

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:45 am 
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I'm assuming that we're talking about SITS here, although a bunch of drunks is startlingly apropos ...

SITS's problem was that it didn't "flow" right for the smaller ships, never mind the damage allocation problems for the large ships. AV:T flows well for smaller ships (frigate up through heavy cruisers), so the only issue is damage allocation for large ships. Fortunately, AV:T already includes an (optional) quick system for damalloc. If I need to inflict 1000 point of damage on a Leviathan, I'm using the quick system.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:08 pm 
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And one of the things we're working on for AV:T (with Gareth Perkins) is a VB program to do damage allocation.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:39 am 
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Yep - and it's well on the way - I hope to have an initial release out late this week or early next week,

Laser and coilgun damage to start with, but I see no reason why nukes shouldn't be pretty easy to do as well... :)

And of course, that makes nukes quick and painless enough to use :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:45 am 
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Gareth Perkins wrote:
Yep - and it's well on the way - I hope to have an initial release out late this week or early next week,

Laser and coilgun damage to start with, but I see no reason why nukes shouldn't be pretty easy to do as well... :)

And of course, that makes nukes quick and painless enough to use :twisted:


If you can get something before Saturday, it's possible that James Sterrett may have a chance to field test it this coming weekend.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:01 am 
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Well,

Here's what I have so far:

http://www.neostar.org.uk/misc/AVT.zip

Unzip the file with folders. You should get a directory called 'AVT'. Within it are the three unilities produced so far:

1/ vAVID program, stripped down for AV: T
2/ Shellstar program, with some (minor) tweaks
3/ Damage program.

The first two you've pretty much seen before, there are some comments for the third.

First of all this is very preliminary - the interface is currently very poor, but it does the job. I think I've covered just about everything you might need for coilgun, laser and kinetic missile projectiles.

When you run the program it will ask you for a file to work with - browse to one of the XML ship files and the program will open (you can change the current ship from within the program by clicking File --> Load ship).

On this screen the top-right has some basic information about the ship, the middle to lower right is for output and the left hand side is for input.

The area labeled 'Ship Zones' can be ignored for now - that's part of what I have planned for the user interface, but is currently non-functional.

In the 'Damage Information' area is currently where it's at.

1/ Enter a damage pool
2/ Choose the desired level of AP
3/ Select the attack type (lasers and kinetics only for now)
4/ Choose the core-penetrating shot hull zone from the dropdown (not very user friendly, the notation is 'xxx_yyy' where xxx is the facing (bow, aft, und, prt, stb, top) and yyy indicates which area on that facing is hit (top, und, prt, stb, ctr).
5/ Choose the impact zone (default is the CP zone) to allow for shallow angle shots
6/ Choose any sniping options (None by default, but each zone shows and applicable weapon mounts and where relevent the mast)
7/ If sniping at the mast and spending flex points or sniping at a weapon which fired this round check the relevent boxes.

(For the CP shot, Impact zone and sniping options you will need to work from top to bottom as they will reset later options when they are changed).

The listbox to the right should now show the hull regions the attack will pass through and when you hit 'Resolve Damage!' the listboxes on the right should output the die rolls (left box) and damage results (right box).

***

Pretty simple so far :)

I have some ideas for tidying up the interface but as ever ideas are welcome. Likewise if anyone manages to make the program do something wrong or stupid or if I've missed an option somewhere please let me know,

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Gareth Perkins wrote:

First of all this is very preliminary - the interface is currently very poor, but it does the job. I think I've covered just about everything you might need for coilgun, laser and kinetic missile projectiles.


The interface isn't bad; now that I know what you want for silhouette info I can get you the other templates.

Quote:
When you run the program it will ask you for a file to work with - browse to one of the XML ship files and the program will open (you can change the current ship from within the program by clicking File --> Load ship).


Does this use the entire XML file, or just a subset? While I don't object to the XML files being the ur data format, I'm a tiny bit concerned about people tweaking them in text editors.

Quote:
On this screen the top-right has some basic information about the ship, the middle to lower right is for output and the left hand side is for input.

The area labeled 'Ship Zones' can be ignored for now - that's part of what I have planned for the user interface, but is currently non-functional.

In the 'Damage Information' area is currently where it's at.

1/ Enter a damage pool
2/ Choose the desired level of AP
3/ Select the attack type (lasers and kinetics only for now)
4/ Choose the core-penetrating shot hull zone from the dropdown (not very user friendly, the notation is 'xxx_yyy' where xxx is the facing (bow, aft, und, prt, stb, top) and yyy indicates which area on that facing is hit (top, und, prt, stb, ctr).
5/ Choose the impact zone (default is the CP zone) to allow for shallow angle shots
6/ Choose any sniping options (None by default, but each zone shows and applicable weapon mounts and where relevent the mast)
7/ If sniping at the mast and spending flex points or sniping at a weapon which fired this round check the relevent boxes.


To keep terminology consistent...

Please use "nose" for "bow", "btm" for "under".

Any chance we can treat the armor silhouette as a clickable image map to select this?

Quote:
(For the CP shot, Impact zone and sniping options you will need to work from top to bottom as they will reset later options when they are changed).

The listbox to the right should now show the hull regions the attack will pass through and when you hit 'Resolve Damage!' the listboxes on the right should output the die rolls (left box) and damage results (right box).


It seems to work, and it's damned fast. :)

On the output of damage results, can you do anything with the fonts?

For example, when it says Weapon Mount C, and then shows what was hit on the mount, can you have what was hit indented a bit?

Can you put a blank line between damage listings when it transits to a different region of the ship?

Are you aware of the (C) (circle C) optional rule that was discussed? It's going into a Nexus Journal #2 article to tweak damage allocation.

***

Pretty simple so far :)

I have some ideas for tidying up the interface but as ever ideas are welcome. Likewise if anyone manages to make the program do something wrong or stupid or if I've missed an option somewhere please let me know,[/quote]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
Does this use the entire XML file, or just a subset? While I don't object to the XML files being the ur data format, I'm a tiny bit concerned about people tweaking them in text editors.


While I'm not using a lot of info from the XML it is scattered throughout the XML file (I need basic information about a lot of different aspects of the ships components).

Given the choice how would you prefer the program to handle the raw data? When you say using a text editor to edit the file are you worried about people 'hacking' the system to gain in-game benefit or something else?

If it helps, I've hit a snag with nuclear attacks that might alleviate some of your concerns. Simply put, nukes degrade armour - and as far as I'm aware this is the only in-game effect that has an ongoing effect on the way damage is allocated. To model this in game I need to enable the program to track this (for 'regular' attacks this could be easily resolved, but if a another nuke strikes it's awkward!).

My original plan was not to track long-term information, but this makes that impossible (or at least very complex to implement and not very user-friendly). So, I'm going to allow each instance of the program to be 'personalised' to a specific ship, and on a separate form the user will be able to see (and potentially edit) the ships armour ratings, and also see the damage tables.

This would at least allow players to eyeball the damage tables, armour and so on for their opponents shipping.

Quote:
To keep terminology consistent...
Please use "nose" for "bow", "btm" for "under".


Good catch - I need three-letter codes to keep my programming easy, but for the user interface the text will need to be clear and consistent.

Quote:
Any chance we can treat the armor silhouette as a clickable image map to select this?


That's the plan - but it's a fairly complex set of images (lots of clickable zones), which is why it isn't finished yet (and the radio boxes are to indicate whether the click is for the CP shot or the actual impact zone - although perhaps right clicking or something might be more apt).

Quote:
On the output of damage results, can you do anything with the fonts?
For example, when it says Weapon Mount C, and then shows what was hit on the mount, can you have what was hit indented a bit?


Yep - that I can do. Because nukes hit weapons rather than weapon mounts I'm going to have to differentiate by weapon rather than die roll on the mount hits, so the format there might change a bit too - so in future weapon mount hits might be:

Mount C
....MRLS No. 2

or something like that (I can't figure out how to indent the second line above in BBCode, but you get the idea).

Quote:
Can you put a blank line between damage listings when it transits to a different region of the ship?


Sure - no problem.

Quote:
Are you aware of the (C) (circle C) optional rule that was discussed? It's going into a Nexus Journal #2 article to tweak damage allocation.


Nope - never heard of it.

I also realised that I'd forgotten about frag-shells - expect them in the next revision.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:17 pm 
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Gareth Perkins wrote:

Quote:
Are you aware of the (C) (circle C) optional rule that was discussed? It's going into a Nexus Journal #2 article to tweak damage allocation.


Nope - never heard of it.

I also realised that I'd forgotten about frag-shells - expect them in the next revision.


OK, this is an optional damage resolution rule, that if it'd been suggested before 1.5 had come out, would've become the standard.

1) The {2} and {3} octagons would be replaced with (C)s.
2) Hitting a (C) means that you hit the Core table for one hit, ignoring soak. EG, you mark the box off, and roll one hit location on the Core, taking whatever system got hit.
3) In the Core, hitting a system that's completely destroyed means that you fall to SI hits instead of just having the destroyed system absorb the hit (aka "bouncing the rubble").

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:03 am 
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Sounds good (I'll certainly try it out next time I play), but at the moment doesn't affect what I'm doing - I'm not tracking damage, just the hit locations.

The (C) boxes and 'Rubbled' core hits will only become apparent after this stage when record keeping happens. So the simplest way to play it is to mark of damage (and new SI hits) and manually roll any new core hits coming from the SI track,

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